Poultry Nutrition Just Changed: The First Major Update Since 1994

For the first time since 1994, the National Academies has released a major revision of the nutrient requirements for poultry. What does that mean for the feed in your barn—and should you change anything?

Jennifer and Carey break down why crude protein alone does not describe a complete diet, how digestibility and amino-acid balance affect what birds can actually use, and why species, genetics, age, reproductive workload, environment and water all matter.

In this episode:
• What the new 2026 Nutrient Requirements of Poultry report is
• Why the feed tag is a starting point, not the whole answer
• Digestible amino acids, energy and mineral availability
• Nutrition for breeders, growing birds and molting flocks
• How feed changes, water quality and environment affect birds
• Why supplements and high-protein treats cannot repair an unbalanced diet
• How to use new research without abruptly changing your flock’s feed

Read Nutrient Requirements of Poultry: Tenth Revised Edition online:
https://www.nationalacademies.org/read/25395

Explore the official publication:
https://www.nationalacademies.org/projects/DELS-BANR-15-01/publication/25395

Learn more from the Poultry Nerds:
https://www.poultrynerdspodcast.com

Need help with incubation?
https://www.incubationmasterclass.com

This episode discusses poultry nutrition research alongside practical experience. Nutrient needs vary by species, age, genetics, environment and production stage. Confirm health concerns through appropriate testing and veterinary guidance.

Valley Hatchery is a proud sponsor of Poultry Nerds, find more at ValleyHatchery.com

Transcript

Carey (3) 0:23

Poultry nutrition guidelines just received their first major update since 1994. Today, we’re looking at what changed—and what it actually means for the feed you buy. Who's got chickens? Who's got quail? Who's got hatch rates off the scale? From brooders, coops, and mystery birds. You're listening to poultry nerds. Talking eggs and talking birds. Science stories, tips you've heard. Welcome to The Poultry Nerds

Jennifer 0:56

So I noticed about a week or so ago that a new set of guidelines for poultry nutrition had been studied and put out for, the first time in 30, 40 years. Who puts these studies out?

Carey 1:14

people that are way above my pay grade, that have a ridiculous amount of time on their hands, and they literally measure every gram of everything that they consume- and the results Super nerdy, which I thought it would be applicable So what's it gonna do for us? it really helps the people that say, how do we know da, da, da? They haven't checked this and da, da, da." I say, this was actually completed a couple weeks ago and published, and this is what they're saying. And if you want to hit your bird's genetic peak, your bird can metabolize up to this amount of this particular mineral or amino acid. And if you wanna find its genetic abilities, you're gonna have to feed it."

Jennifer 1:57

Okay. in an effort of complete transparency- Yeah I know that we talk all the time, and we talk a lot about feed. But to be honest with you, I don't absorb a whole lot of it, because I know I can just text you and say, "Send me whatever I need." So yeah, that's what I'm here for. Yeah. I like providing solutions to people's problem. I haven't looked at this slideshow. You put it together. So I am going to pretend I'm just a listener and go, "Why do we care exactly?" Because I'm in the same boat everybody else is. we have a lot of listeners that just got their chickens for the first time this year. they got some chicks from Tractor Supply or whatever.

Carey 2:36

And we also have a lot of listeners that do shows and compete to see who has the prettiest birds. And I kinda have my own opinions about that, 'cause I really think that a lot of times depends more on the judge than the bird. So but I can also say that as a spectator at a poultry show, some of the reactions could be very entertaining.

Jennifer 2:58

I have seen grown adults act like two-year-olds. And I've seen two-year-olds act like two-year-olds, which- is very entertaining as long as it's not mine. Exactly. So I get it. But what we're gonna do today is we're gonna talk about this. We're gonna talk about why it matters.

Carey 3:13

Because, you know- People wonder, "Why does it matter? What does it do? What will I benefit?" So we're gonna tell 'em.. And they can either listen, go do their own research, or just listen for mere entertainment. I'm sure we'll find a rabbit hole. There's some, definitely some prospects in here. Okay. So the bag tag is the start, not the answer. and a lot of people look at the price tag for the answer, which is not really that good either. one of the most important things is digestibility and what can be absorbed. there's a lot of things that are fillers that their bodies don't absorb And a lot of times you know that by the smell of their poop.

Jennifer 3:58

I was talking to somebody today about some advertising and things like that, and she laughed and she was like, my dad said that he could always tell if the- what the cows needed by looking at their poop." I was like, "Yeah, you can tell a lot." their actual intake versus what they need.

Carey 4:17

some animals are gluttons. you give a pig, you put some food in front of a pig, they're literally gonna eat until they can't eat anymore, or they roll off- because they're so full. I've... it's a thing. But for the most part, poultry, as a general rule, they're not very gluttonous animals.

Jennifer 4:37

And it does depend on their environment, whether or not they're stressed, 'cause some of them are stress eaters, some of them are stress not eaters. And for those of y'all that deal with stress, you know the difference, which that has to do with their environment and all that good stuff.

Carey 4:51

When you talk about the bag tag- so the first thing that comes to my mind is the actual feed bag- and they make them bright colors and fun colors and- Most definitely make the feathers all pretty and bright. and then the feed, some of the feed is all mixed up and you can see all the colors. w- do you want a feed that's all pretty colors? So that, that brings up a very good topic because a lot of times people will buy feed based off how it looks, or how the bag looks, or what the marketing says.

Jennifer 5:21

And perfect example, I had a guy come in the store the other day that wanted to get some feed for game fowl, and there is a feed that is- Really well-balanced. first there's my feed, which I'm very partial to, the, the ShowPro line. but it's just in a brown bag, and he didn't even look at it twice.

Carey 5:44

And then, I showed him this other feed that's also... it's not, the numbers aren't as high as mine, but neither is the price, and it's in a plain white bag And, he, he was like, And then I showed him another bag that the nutritional numbers of the three bags, the, the last bag was lower on the feed tag. The price tag, it was $3 more than the one next to it, but the bag had a lot of vibrant colors on it, like bright yellows, and greens, and reds, and, the bag looks good. It ain't plain white, it ain't plain brown with a sticker on it. And he bought that one. I was like- So lesson is you need to put Christy color on your bra- plain brown bags.

Jennifer 6:29

that's a thought. I could get those bags and take them to the house and let her draw on them. a lot of people would probably actually love that. All right. I'll talk to the marketing guys about it. Okay. Digestibility. Now, I know this one. So we're talking about, you can throw all the oyster shell you want to in the coop, but if they don't have vitamin D, they can't do anything with the calcium, right?

Carey 6:49

Yeah, their bodies won't process it. And you know- So if you're giving them oyster shell but not a balanced feed, they can't do anything with it. It won't do any good, and that's one of the reasons why when some- a lot of times when people will say, "My birds look puny" or, "My birds look..." whatever term they use for negative, I instantly, the first thing I ask them is, "What are they feeding them?" And if what they're feeding them is one that I know the tag on and I'm familiar with, and it's a better quality feed that the birds should not be doing that, my next question goes to their water. What's the pH of their water? Because a lot of folks don't realize that if their water pH is high, that also is gonna screw with the digestibility of a lot of the minerals and amino acids inside the feed. if you're having... If you're feeding a really good feed, if you've got eggshells out there available, or oyster shells out there available, and you're still getting weak eggshells or transparent eggshells or eggshells that you can wiggle and not crack them- then that bird's not digesting the calcium that it's taking in. And one of the more common reasons is having high pH water. So a lot of that plays into fat. We talked about that recently on another podcast. We did. Okay. So 32 years is how long it's been. You asked a while ago, it's the

Carey (3) 8:07

It’s called Nutrient Requirements of Poultry: Tenth Revised Edition, published by the National Academies

Carey 8:13

this is a whole organization, and they do broilers, layers, breeders, turkeys, ducks, quail, all of that mess.

Jennifer 8:23

The new book is 424 pages long. I really want a copy of it, but I looked at the price tag and decided that I would read the excerpts for now. 'Cause, they act like that research ain't done been paid for with the price of this book But they, they talk about the levels of amino acids and the different vitamins and stuff, and they found that the birds were able to metabolize them and absorb them and use them up to a certain percentage.

Carey 8:50

they're saying poultry as a whole can take in up to 0.68% methionine. number one, you're not gonna find the feed on the shelf that... that's that high. But, knowing that and knowing the benefits of methionine, if you gave a bird that much, that bird would be beautiful, vibrant colored.

Jennifer 9:10

it would be outstanding. So- yeah, I th- I think it's gonna make a lot of people sharpen their pencils and look, especially the ones in the show world that are after the vibrant colors, without the negative of having the wrong color sheen on your darker birds, But this right here, this can be used as a backbone for anything going forward because they really put their homework into it.

Carey 9:34

At least I hope they did. It's been 32 years. They're ready to retire now. Yeah. crude protein alone can't describe a complete diet. we've talked about that a whole lot. And you've got the digestible amino acids, energy levels, mineral availability, watering environment is huge, and the ingredient variations. One of the reasons why I don't like feed tags that say grain products or something along those line- they use the word products period, is when you vary that, the birds know. And you're like, "What?" But let me ask this. How many of you can remember as a kid when your mom would cook, say, spaghetti or whatever your favorite meal was, you knew how Mom's spaghetti taste.

Jennifer 10:20

And when Mom got a different kind of sauce because her favorite sauce wasn't available, you knew it, right? Chickens know too. that, for us, s- okay, so Mom's spaghetti tasted different tonight But apparently the research shows that to chickens, it stresses them the crap out, and they just don't know what to do, and that's why when you change, a lot of times they'll go on strike for a couple weeks. You wanna hear something funny? Of course. you've been in my barn 1,000 times, so you know the- quail are lined up kinda down the center. And I keep my feed bags on a walker, and I just kinda walk down and feed everybody. for the quail, what I do is I feed them your layer- and then when they eat that up, I give them the Kalmbach, and then when they eat that up, I give them yours, and then I just kinda keep going back and forth. of course, yours is a mash and Kalmbach is a mili- mini pellet. when I put the pellets in there and they- still have some of your mash- I get beamed in the forehead with pellets. They throw them back at me. Man, get that crap outta here. So do the birds like the mash more than the pellets? So when I first started feeding the mash, I was like, "This is insane. I don't know what to do." all that mess

Carey 11:34

They didn't like it. But I was trying to change it all at once. And I was like, "Hey, dummy, you know the science says that you should not change it cold turkey like what you just did." "You should make it gradual." Oh, yeah. So I stopped what I was doing, and I started back with their other feed 50/50 and, worked it out over a two-week period.

Jennifer 11:59

When I did that, then I got them swapped over to it, and now, to be honest, if I ran out of mash and opened up another bag, they would notice a difference just on smell. I can't help it. There's no fillers in it. That's To me, that's a, a benefit to a mash is when you buy 50 pounds of feed, you're getting 50 pounds of feed. You're not getting 35, 40 pounds of feed and 10 pounds of pulpwood or whatever filler they wanna use to make the pellet. And I know I hear people say that the birds can't get every speck out, and that's not a true statement because I have three Aloma coops full of turkeys currently, and every morning when I go out there, they have eaten it to zero.

Carey 12:47

there's... You couldn't rub your finger across it and get any dust out of there. Yeah. and even that's something that unless you fed the bird a coarse mash or a mash the whole, its whole life, it may take some time, but I've always found that, if you put a little bit of oil in the feed and mix it up, they'll get those fines real fast.

Jennifer 13:08

they'll treat it like candy, and it'll get to where they clean it up more and more. I don't know if they're licking their finger and, acting like they're getting the last bit of icing out of the container- or how they do it, but they'll make it clean. The, I think the biggest part of that learning curve, switching to the mash, was the feeders.

Carey 13:26

You have to do different feeders than you're accustomed to. You have to switch over to trough style. Yep. You do have to switch over to a trough style because, mash will clog up. A lot of feeders are designed for pellets because once the world started using those, everybody likes convenience. And yes, it is a lot easier to use a pellet, especially if you're one of those that just toss 'em out there for 'em. But doing everything the easy way ain't always the right way, and you get out of stuff what you put into it. So I don't want my birds to eat anything that I wouldn't eat, and I've had people come into the store and say, "Hey, you got such and such?" "Nope." "Why not?" are you gonna carry it? Nope. It's not something I'll feed my animals, and I'm not gonna ask anybody to

Jennifer 14:12

I, I personally don't think that a feed should have so much cellulose in it that you can actually light it on fire

Carey 14:18

That's the same stuff they put on shredded cheese, right? Cellulose. Did you not know that? Yeah. They put it on shredded cheese when you buy it so it doesn't cake and stay separate. And, that's It's wood filler. Yeah The leftovers from pulpwood. and then you've also got the poop standpoint. So when you feed them good stuff, the poop is different. Yes. Which I found out by accident a while ago. But we actually did a consult recently, and I answered part of his questions and you answered part of his questions. But he had switched off to a cheap feed- and he's having to clean his poop trays, what, every other day now. Yeah. And he said that the smell is horrible. And, I told I was like, the studies show this, and a lot of that is in there." And he's like, "But the birds eat it." Okay.

Jennifer 15:07

Cause they're starving. My to- my toddlers love candy. That don't mean it's good for them. they could be eating it because they're starving, right? Yeah. And I've said that to folks before, and they're like, they think... They get all offensive because they think that I'm accusing them of starving their animals, and I'm like, "No, it's not really your fault because you don't know the difference." But once you learn- The easiest way I have- If you still feel guilty about it, it may be your fault the easiest way I have to explain this to people, and it's us- it's in the dog food. If you buy a bag of Old Roy, which is, I don't even know how much it is, it says complete nutrition for dogs. And if you buy- Okay.

Carey 15:44

Yeah a $100 bag of Purina Pro Plan or something, then, or Science Diet, it says complete nutrition for dogs. So- And that's very confusing to people. Yeah. So why would you buy the expensive stuff if Old Roy's complete nutrition? Because we all know that it's not. And if you feed Old Roy, you're gonna get these giant landmines.

Jennifer 16:06

Giant. And they're- 'Cause I used to be that guy feeding Old Roy and they go through a ton of it. They eat a lot of it. But if you buy the expensive stuff, then you feed less and there's smaller landmines. So every- I think most everybody has at least noticed that with their dogs. Yeah and so translate that back over to these birds, and that should kinda give you a visual. Yeah. And a lot of people think, "Oh, this is different." no, not really, because if you think about yourself, when you're on a diet and you're eating right and doing the things that you should, it's not as bad.

Carey 16:42

When you're living your best life and eating crazy stuff that later in life you'll be like, "I can't understand why I ever ate that," and think about it then, it's different Hence, you can learn a lot about an animal by looking at their poop Pretty interesting Yes but not to everybody. breeder nutrition should track reproductive workload.

Jennifer 17:06

they did a lot of studying with nutrition as it relates to, lysine, methionine, threonine, and breeders especially, because they know that they're... breeding affects every aspect of poultry, whether it be quail, turkeys, Cornish Cross, or Silkies. breeding affects it a lot, and I don't mean to be honest, not picking on the Silkie people, but Silkies, I am Samanis, the ones with the heavy mela- melanin content in their skin pigment. not 100% sure where the correlation comes from that makes higher melanonic, sometimes that word gets me. they require more of certain vitamins and amino acids than birds that it's not that high in. But they actually took that into consideration when they were doing this research and come up with these numbers.

Carey 17:56

So I thought that was pretty interesting that, I guess that's just because of the popularity that those birds have gained over the years. they decided to look into it. But, this right here is where they show that there's .68 grams per hen per day of digestible methionine that they can benefit from.

Jennifer 18:16

Yeah. And a lot of feed has less than half of that. The digestible threonine is .8. A lot of feed don't even have half of that. And the digestible lysine in hens is 1.03, and there's a lot of layer feed that don't even have one, or .8, .9 is pretty common on the less expensive ones. and that is what the bird actually takes in their body, not what's on the feed tag.

Carey 18:47

So if you want your bird to get that You know, if they don't clean up the feed, they're gonna have to get a little extra. So I'm noticing your little, in the black highlight down there, they didn't just track the eggs, they tracked the day-old chicks. So this plays into their fertility- Big time which plays into the egg nutrition for growing a healthy chick, which I have been doing a lot of research on that, and putting that research into Incubation Masterclass. Yes. And that- that's why, we tell people that only use a breeder supplement or only feed a high quality feed for breeding season, that they really need to start four to six weeks ahead of time before they start collecting eggs, because that's what determines your egg health. what a hen eats today will have no affection on the bird, the, the egg that it lays tomorrow.

Jennifer 19:39

it has to get, has to have time to absorb all the nutrients and stuff, and process it throughout the body to even pass it on, along to the egg. I'd be interested to know if they studied the gut health in this study. Do you know if they did? Maybe. Okay. Are we, is there a slide for that? and this is where we talk about the feed consumed versus the digest- digestible nutrient percentage.

Carey 20:01

the grams delivered per day per bird versus what they actually take in and how heat can lower the intake. that's... A lot of people say, "Oh, you need to lower the protein in the summertime." no, because actually they need more digestible protein because they're taking in less. So in the summertime would be when they needed the more nutritious, the higher protein feed because they're eating less, so they're, like, they're probably only taking in a lower protein percentage if you work out the math. And, that's another reason behind it is if your bird eats four ounces per day in December, it may only eat two in August, and if you're feeding it the same thing, bird's gonna look rough, and it ain't gonna be just because it's in, just because it's molting. It's gonna molt really hard because it's stressed out, because it's internally it's starving. So that's part of the math that a lot of people don't think about, and one of the things that I liked about the way they published the research and the part of it that they made public where you didn't have to buy the book is they're putting it in ways that people can understand. Because a lot of people, they don't understand it, and I get that. I didn't understand it at first either, fast-forward four or five years and I just understand it better than I used to 'cause there's still some aspects I don't get. you know I'm doing that supplement study. And one of the supplem- the point of the supplement is for gut health to fight off, sick- sicknesses.

Jennifer 21:33

That's what they want to do, sicknesses. but so I'm feeding it to... everybody's getting it at this point because I'm seeing such good results. It's hard to kinda put it into numbers, though. the quail that had it from hatch to breeder and then their offspring, guess how many of those quail died in the brooder. They're currently four weeks old right now. Mm- I would say less than 2%, which would be very low. But I only say that because I've seen the results. Zero. Yeah, I can see that. Zero birds have died in that brooder. And I'm running them side by side. So I've got some control groups, and then I have th- those groups, and the other ones, you know, you're still losing the, the 2 to 4% or so. this group is four-weeks-old, and I want to say there's 36 of them in there or so. zero have died. That brooder getting tight. they're out on wire now, but Yeah. That's a good thing- 'cause they all lived, and- Yeah I bet it was getting tight. Yeah, and they're all good size. And so now the breast chickens have been getting it into their layer feed. so one thing that we have noticed, and I've talked to the developers about it, is the chicks eat it up. But the adults, they don't have a whole lot of interest in eating it. so- No, they're more picky. Okay. And so I've been mixing it into the Show Pro layer- and giving it to them, and they've had it for, I think right now, on their fifth week right now. And I'm actually gonna set eggs this week, the end of this week, to check fertility and, chick gr- and chick health, and compare it to what was happening last year when I was having some issues and, But these breeders have now had it, some of them have had it all year, and some of them have had it their whole lives. And I have, so I have three groups that are older who've just had it this year, it's since April, and then I have a group that has had it their entire life. So we're gonna be able to compare those two results too. that will be great. Because the, the stuff works. It does. Yep. And the thing about it that is amazing is, gut health is extremely important, and using the different strains of-

Carey 23:55

The bacillus family, 'cause it's like lactobacillus and, all those different long words Yogurt. Yeah. plain yogurt. it's really beneficial and, a lot of people eat yogurt because it's healthy, because of the gut health. I think it's nasty, so I don't eat it. No. I swear.

Jennifer 24:13

It's good stuff. I, I like ice cream. I know. yogurt's just You're crazy. I mean- All right. What else we got on this one? Oh, we're ready. Okay. Yep. Protein choices. Protein choices can show up in the litter and the footpad. How? you got people that are always talking about, "I got bumblefoot and I don't know why."

Carey 24:34

poor choice in feed and not really good protein sources. 'Cause if you look at the, protein products instead of, specific protein products, that can get pretty wide Okay, so let's back up for a minute. So bumblefoot is like a bruise or an abrasion on their foot that essentially just gets infected and creates a kernel, right? Yeah. Yep. And then that infection can- does travel through their system into their heart, and so to get rid of it totally, they need antibiotics. You can't just put them in a Epsom salt bath and vet wrap it and be done with it. It's a systemic problem. No, it's systemic, and it's a, it's an infection.

Jennifer 25:59

And so what you're saying- And it's not gonna change you're saying the protein choices affect that? So indirectly. Okay. if you don't use decent proteins, i.e. feed decent feeds, and, by the standard a lot of them are decent, but some of them are really questionable. But it, when that is off, it causes their, general health and immunity to be down because they don't have, they don't take in the vitamins and stuff that makes them healthy.

Carey 26:31

Gotcha. it'd be like, it'd be like me eating crystals every day. okay. So to, to talk about bumblefoot specifically though, there's an environment factor to that. You wanna make sure the roosts aren't too high, there's no rocks on the ground. that when they land, when they're flying down from the roost, they're not landing on sharp objects, basically.

Jennifer 26:50

there's always gonna be that. Okay. But if you got a, if you got a bird that is nutritionally sound and they're on top of it, and they, come down off a really high perch, and they maybe take in a splinter in their foot because they hit a piece of wood or something, their body can push that out if it's nutritionally sound.

Carey 27:09

Gotcha. 'cause like I'm sure you've gotten splinters before in your finger, and you just push and it comes out, and you- and so other times, maybe not. And it's the same principle even though, they're poultry and we're people. So we're kinda like talking about healthy person in a clean environment.

Jennifer 27:28

Those two things make better birds. 'Cause I- I honestly don't mess with bumblefoot. I don't have it. I don't see it here. But I have my roosts are all, what, 18 inches off the ground. I did have a problem once, but I, Figured it out put those birds to sleep and in the Crockpot, and made sure that I did not have anything around that may compromise the health, and started over. I do keep all my stuff l- dry too. now in the spring rains, the winter rains, and it's all just- It's hard it's bad. Like the turkeys walk through and they're, like, ankle-deep in the water. I'm like, "Dude, just get on the roost and wait it out like everybody else." Yeah. I don't know what to tell you.

Carey 28:11

sometimes, sorry, guy. Yeah. It is what it is. But, it's up to us as the manager to remediate some of that. your birds have high points that they can get to get out of it. They have, ample roost space that they can use. Mine have anything from plastic pallets.

Jennifer 28:31

I don't recommend wooden ones because- The splinters the splinters over time. it- it's just too risk, too much of a risk. But, plastic pallet or rocks. if you got a big rock- Sometimes chickens will play on that more than goats will. But anything like that where they can get out of it, then, you're doing better because if you're gonna have chickens, like especially if you're gonna have more than four or five layers so you can have some really cheap eggs, it's gonna be a problem sooner or later. You wanna hear a funny? Another funny? Yes. Okay. Yes. So I'm looking at your orange one, and it says, "Wetter litter and ammonia." So I have my turkey coops, for those people who don't kn- haven't seen them, I have extensive sized turkey pen. And I have a rat tunnel in there, and it has been in there for three or four years.

Carey 29:18

Nice. And you can't get rid of them. it's like whack-a-mole with the rats, right? So- No, they'll like tunnel through concrete. Yes. And so I have to find some enjoyment in dealing with the rats. So I have a rake up there, like one of those metal rakes, and I rake all the turkey poop, which turkey poop is large if you have never had a turkey, and I squish it down in the rat holes.

Jennifer 29:44

Okay. And so it's just one of my little... You can probably hear me laughing out there. David says I sound like the witch on Bugs Bunny. Cackling. Of course, 'cause you're like- Yeah. "I got one on you." But, they'll pop right through it They will. It's ridiculous or dig another one by it. Oh, my word. we've tried everything. We even poured, some quick, dry quickcrete down. David had an extra bag, and we just poured it down it. I think he bought mortar mix or something on accident, so we poured that down in there, and they just came right up beside it. They did not care. "Oh, you slowed us down for a couple minutes, but-" Yeah we know what you feed these birds, and- Yeah, exactly ..."we wanna eat it, too." Exactly. I'm gonna have to move their feed is what I'm gonna have to do. all right. they know my wife. So we've got digestion, we've got... What about this n- nitrogen and water load? What is that? Oh, that, that plays into effect when it comes to using it all and putting it together.

Carey 30:35

'Cause nitrogen is important and water is important. A bird should take in twice as much water as they drink every day. that's one of the reasons, you got a lot of people that have game fowl, they'll have these half gallon c- water cups on their individual pens, and a lot of show people do as well. But when you have birds out there in the wintertime, have problems with them breaking, not gonna drink half a gallon of water. Don't fill it up. Where's this nitrogen coming from? eating grass. Oh, okay. Anything like that. Okay. Again, too much of a good thing is not necessarily a good thing, some people will try to lower protein to cure diseases Why?

Jennifer 31:16

Who would do that? I don't know Social media people? I've seen in the past couple months a lot of stuff. my, my birds are sick. They have, after you go through the painful what they read, simply the bird has coryza or a sinus infection. And, they'll... Some folks will say, lower the protein down to about 10%.

Carey 31:38

Do this and do that." And the others will say, you need to feed it some game bird starter. It's got a lot of stuff in it. They need it." And I'm over here "Okay, starving it is not gonna help. A lot of protein isn't gonna do anything but tax their internal organs and shorten their life. why don't you actually manage the problem?"

Jennifer 31:56

These, is this game fowl people doing that? Or- Both. Oh. Both. Both. I have seen in, we will say a backyard group- Okay a lot of really outlandish buffoonery that people are trying to guide other people into. And it's no secret right now I'm in Facebook jail. I can still look and read, I just can't like, comment, send messages, none of that stuff.

Carey 32:28

And I go to one of those groups a lot for show research. Just, you find some good topics in there. Some things folks need to learn the correct way on. And the other night I was, like, there was one and I'm like, "No, don't do that." they were telling somebody that their chickens had worms and they needed to give them lye. And that- Lye? Okay. So let me preface. Back in the day- Okay probably when you were a kid or maybe longer, they ga- they did use lye to get rid of intestinal worms. that is a legitimate thing. Okay. But it is not something for a rookie chicken keeper to just get on Amazon, order some lye, and go tossing it in the feed. Cause That'll make a rookie chicken keeper not have any chickens to keep really fast. Wow. But that's what... And I'm, I, I was getting mad because I couldn't say, "No." Because the person that gave the advice didn't say how much or how little to use. They just said, "Put some in there." put some in there is you get some of the, the B12 liquid red Kool-Aid stuff that you can buy at the, lot of stores and, squirt some in their water. Oh, I'm supposed- let me just do this. This'll be real good for them. you try pulling that off with the lye, and like I said, you're not gonna have any chickens left to keep. So that kind of advice is stuff that really gets next to me a lot, 'cause People have tried Yeah, they will And I'm like, how many chickens have died because this guy said give them some lime, wasn't specific, didn't give them cautions or anything else Well, but it won't be blamed on that. It'll be blamed on the worms or something, which they probably don't even have because nobody tested them and they don't know for sure. Yeah. So- And that's another thing that gets me, is a lot of people say, "Oh, your chickens got worms." how do you know? See worms in the poop? So right now my social media is flooded with all the do your chickens have dirty butts and the feathers are nasty or whatever. yeah. probably half of my chickens do.

Jennifer 34:36

they have worms, and you have to buy this, and you have to buy that, and you have to do this, and you have to do that. no, I'm fully aware th- of my chickens and the length of the feathers on their butts and the mud they like to go in because of the cow manure and, Yeah, what is up with that? and everything else. Let's go to the pond and see if there's tadpoles and- Like- everything else. So maybe look at the environment and if- Yeah you know your birds. My birds get like this every year at this time, and they're fixing to molt. Some of them have already started, and they will have these beautiful feathers here in a couple months, and nobody else will have dirty butts. No more dirty butts. yeah, like that's There's so many things out there that people, even natural things, that people say will cure this and cure that. there's a reason why even USDA will come down on you really hard if somebody complains and brings it to their attention that you're making a medical claim about putting some, herbs together.

Carey 35:31

Because that'll build up an immune system, but it ain't curing nothing. it appears, through marketing, that it is, because what's gonna happen is they buy the expensive stuff- they give it to their birds, the birds start to molt. Now they have clean, beautiful feathers. So wow, it must have been the- 'Cause they got rid of all the old ones

Jennifer 35:50

fancy bird herbs. Yeah. But I've been raising this line of Orpingtons for, this is my seventh year now. I do this every year. Every year they look the same, and it's not all of them, but they look the same. It's the ones that want to run over to the pond or chase the cows or- It's the chickens that wanna be chickens. Exactly. yeah. they're doing all that crazy stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just a dirty butt- And they're wore out, too because they're all dirty. And they're wore out, too. It's hot. They're drinking more water. their feathers are bad because of breeding season. And see, that brings up another thing, is this time of year if they're having a looser stool than they normally do- it's 'cause they drink a crap load more water See, and I just said that because I just assumed everybody knew that. So that's part of why we need- Yeah people to send us questions, is because we just assume that people know that. Yeah, if, when I get those questions, I'm like If people just knew that, they wouldn't be asking and we're more than happy to explain it- Oh it's just sometimes we just don't think about that stuff- We take it for granted that- 'cause we've been doing it for too long, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk- But a lot of times it is the simple stuff So over here on the right you've got coccidiosis prevention and control. that's just culling, right? Typically, yeah. There's some folks that would probably have to cull everything they had. and I mean that's unfortunate, but, sometimes you get on social media and you wind up with a million different animals, and you can't really manage them all yourself because you're worried about managing other stuff The management part falls awry-

Carey 37:18

and you have coccidiosis- and neurotic enteritis and all those other things So sadly, a lot of that is on the manager. Yeah. It's on the chicken tender. If you started out with good healthy birds and they're not still good and healthy, maybe it was their environment

Jennifer 37:33

High recovery diet protein did not improve post-molt output And the reason I say that is because everybody and their brother says, "After they get done with the molt, throw the protein to them." Cat food. That'll help them get their feed back, or help them get their feathers back. Yeah, give them cat food. Floating catfish feed. Tuna. All that stuff. Yep. tuna's good for them- Oh, okay to an extent. you got oils in there, fish meat. So meat-based protein. Fish are also loaded with amino acids, so that's not bad. But just throwing the protein to them in cat food, and the problem with cat food and dog food is that the whole nutritional makeup is different than that, that a chicken needs.

Carey 38:21

So you're throwing all kinds of numbers off when you do that Yeah. But changing just the crude protein level don't really do jack post molt. Interesting. Yep. And if you wanna buy that book or read it, that's part of the findings that they talk about in it. Or buy it and then send it to you when they're done. They could definitely do that. So what you're saying is that the feathers are coming in post molt regardless of you feeding them cat food or tuna or nothing, and they're gonna be fine.

Jennifer 38:55

Okay. They'll be b- they'll be all right. Just wondering. All right. r- really all, all birds need is clean water and good food. Okay. A lot of the other things that we want to give them, if you really look at it and read the feed tag and study it, it's usually lacking in feed tag.

Carey 39:08

So we're having to make up the difference. Okay. yeah. a molecular response is not the same as performance rescue. Things that they found worked on some birds, like your heritage birds, with cysteine. Cysteine for a heritage bird will make their plumage look amazing, really bring out the shine in it, all that good stuff. You give all the cysteine you want to a Cobb 500 and it's not going to fill in the patches. So cysteine is the stuff that was in ShowPro that made- my Cochins look shiny. Okay. Yeah. Cysteine is an amino acid that really improves feather quality, sheen, like everything about it. Okay. And where I found that research is I was looking for research about that particularly, 'cause, if you wanna put that in a breeder supplement for show people, prettier birds. And I found the cysteine because it's commonly used in human hair supplements. if you get on Amazon and order you one of those that's for better hair, better looking hair, whatever, probably got cysteine in it. And so then I was like, "I wonder if that's the same as in poultry," because a lot of the other stuff is, even though we're mammals and they're not It's the same.

Jennifer 40:25

it affects them the same. So I ha- it's what's making the buff come out better, more gold, right? Okay, so I have somebody that has my birds, only has my birds, never outcrossed, and feeds them co-op food, and saw my birds again after, I don't know, probably a year or two, and said, "Did you get new birds?" And I said, "No. Why?" And he said, "Our birds are not as big as yours, and they definitely do not look like yours." And the birds will get smaller if they don't have the feed- To support it to support it. exactly. I would guess that co-op feed that he's feeding, the fat level is probably somewhere in the mid twos, upper low m- low threes at the upper end on the fat level, and it should be closer to five or six.

Carey 41:18

Gotcha. and it's probably really low on methionine, and there may not even be any cysteine added to it. Probably not, because cysteine is, oh my God, stupid expensive. So use research without overreacting. don't take the research and drastically change what you've been doing. Even if what you've been doing is totally opposite of what research says you should be doing, do not make a drastic change. change it gradually over a two to week, two to three-week period is what many have found to be best. Because otherwise you're gonna cause undue stress to the birds and likely to you, and you're not gonna see the results that you're looking for. that's what this whole graphic's about And this is where the different things came from. Nutritional requirements came from National Academies, broiler breeder amino acids, Poultry Science, Foundation. They've done a lot of extensive reviews on amino acids and vitamins, not only as it relates to broilers, but also as it relates to heritage chickens and, your production layers and stuff too. I really hate that a lot of research does not involve heritage birds as much But every other big brother organization, follow the money. And to them, it's in the broilers. and when you do the research, when you follow the research and they, and almost all of it is on commercial poultry-

Jennifer 42:48

you have to remember that those genetics have been refined for decades. And so when they apply whatever they're studying, those genetics are across the board stable- if that makes sense. So you can't take that one thing that they tweaked and apply it to your yard, because you, no matter how long you've had your line, your birds are not that stable.

Carey 43:11

Yeah, you gotta feed the birds that you have. Yeah. that, you really should be cautioned on some of that because, they, those guys, like the people that do the Cobb genetics, they, or- Triple digit million, if not billion dollar a year companies that profit margin matters down to the grams of feed that they eat and how long it takes to grow them out. Yes. The labor involved at the house. there's been some stuff surface lately about the conditions of the house, but them letting some of that management stuff go is what increases profit margin, 'cause labor's expensive. Sadly, but it is. 'Cause people won't even show up to work at a fast food restaurant for $12 an hour.

Jennifer 44:01

No. Let's, we'll put together a couple others that touch on topics and see. I really can see myself getting that book, 'cause I'm really curious at how deep some of the research is on some of the different types of birds that they did to update it after 30 some odd years. But, a lot of people are gonna take what the research says and adjust it or tweak it to their own- thoughts, feelings, or whatever. 'Cause, a lot of people will say, I think," or, "My opinion" I personally like science and research Yeah, me too

Carey (3) 44:33

The big takeaway is that poultry nutrition is more than the protein number printed on a feed tag. Species, age, genetics, environment, production stage, digestibility, amino acids, water, and the complete balance of the diet all matter. We’ll put a link to the new Nutrient Requirements of Poultry report in the description so you can explore it for yourself. If this episode helped you look at your feed bag differently, subscribe to Poultry Nerds and share it with another poultry keeper. We’ll see you next week at the Nerd table!